'Fox News Sunday' on September 17, 2023

This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on September 17, 2023. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.

Autoworkers are on strike, the president's son indicted, the House Republican leader launches an impeachment inquiry and struggles to find the votes to fund the government.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I'm going to continue to just focus on what's the right thing to do for the American people. And, you know what, if it takes a fight, we'll have a fight.

BREAM (voice-over): Days from now, the government is set to run out of money. And hardliners are pushing back on a framework they say spends too much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm disappointed with Kevin. These are a lot of good things, but on the spending, that's I can't stand (ph).

BREAM: We'll discuss the revolt from the right, including calls for the speaker's job with the number three Republican in the House, New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik.

Then, while House Republicans debate the politics of an official impeachment inquiry, federal prosecutors indict the president's son on gun charges.

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Ironically, that's the one crime that he committed that you cannot tie Joe Biden into.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): They've never connected anything to Joe Biden. So, it's not surprising that the Justice Department charges have nothing to do with the president.

BREAM: The historic indictment comes at a time when the president's reelection effort is encountering headwinds from rising inflation and gas price and now --

(CHANTING)

BREAM: A walkout by the nation's autoworkers.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our auto workers help create America's middle class. They deserve a contract that sustains them in the middle class.

BREAM: We're joined by Congressman Ro Khanna, a member of the president's 2024 national advisory board.

And our Sunday panel weighs on the challenges facing both parties.

Plus, a week away from the second GOP debate. Presidential hopefuls face a surge in polling from the frontrunner. We'll sit down with one of the candidates, Vivek Ramaswamy, to discuss his controversial plan to shrink the federal workforce by 75 percent.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not a corporation, not a virus, not a three-letter government agency is going to defeat us.

BREAM: All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BREAM (on camera): Hello from FOX News in Washington.

The race is on to avoid a federal government shutdown. Lawmakers have less than a dozen working days to pass a series of spending bills. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy working to get the most conservative members of his party in check, while simultaneously launching an impeachment inquiry into the president.

It's all playing as Biden's reelection effort faces concerns from within his own party about, plummeting poll numbers and his son Hunter's indictment on gun charges.

In a moment, House Republican Elise Stefanik of New York and California Democrat Ro Khanna will join me to discuss the funding showdown.

But, first, let's turn to Lucas Tomlinson traveling with the president in Wilmington, Delaware.

Hello, Lucas.

LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, President Biden returned here to his home in Wilmington to rest and reset after that tough week as you mentioned -- issues not likely to go away any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REPORTER: Should Hunter get a pardon, Mr. President?

TOMLINSON (voice-over): President Biden voicing his support for the striking autoworkers, declining to do the same for his son Hunter one day after he was indicted on three gun charges, months after saying he did nothing wrong.

(CHANTING)

TOMLINSON: It's the first time in U.S. history, workers from all three Detroit autoworkers went on strike, days after Biden predicted they would not.

BIDEN: I don't think it's going to happen.

TOMLINSON: The strike capping a challenging week for the president which included a new report showing inflation increasing for a second straight month, fuelled by increasing gas prices, now up to 50 percent from when Biden took office. Food is up nearly 20 percent over the same period.

The inflation report, out one day after House Speaker Kevin McCarthy launched an impeachment inquiry.

MCCARTHY: These are allegations of abuse of power, obstruction, and corruption.

TOMLINSON: A White House spokesman says this is all to appease McCarthy's Republican critics.

IAN SAMS, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: He's being attacked from his right and he's throwing them red meat.

TOMLINSON: McCarthy hopes to probe paves the way for the House to pass a new budget by month's end, to avoid a government shutdown.

The top House Democrat called it a three-wing circus. Many Republicans disagree.

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): The public deserves to know the facts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOMLINSON (on camera): Hunter Biden is due to return to a courtroom here in Wilmington in about a week to face those gun charges and more tax charges could be coming -- Shannon.

BREAM: Lucas Tomlinson in Wilmington, thanks, Lucas

Joining us now, House Republican Conference Chair Elise Stefanik.

Welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Great to be with you, Shannon.

BREAM: OK. So, let's start here, we have this possibility of a government shutdown days away, analysts say mostly of internal strife within the GOP.

"Politico", or excuse me, "Axios" puts it this way: Republicans have fallen into a state of paralyzed chaos with no obvious exit ramp in a government spending fight of their own creation.

Our brand new FOX News poll also puts congressional approval at 19 percent.

So, you guys run the House now. What are you telling the American people about the fact that we can't move a defense bill to fund our troops?

STEFANIK: Well, we're in a very good place. I've been engaged in conversation with members, as well as Speaker McCarthy over the weekend.

We are working through this, and I'm optimistic that we will continue to move the appropriations process forward. And that includes the DOD appropriations bill but also includes potentially a continuing resolution to ensure that we do not face a government shutdown.

But what's really important here, Shannon, is on behalf of the American people, we know inflation is one of the top concerns. Ninety-one percent of the American people are concerned about inflation. We have to rein in this reckless, out of control spending that we've seen under the Biden administration.

BREAM: Well, and that is what your most conservative wing is worried about. They say they made deals, they agreed to a budget deal, there were spending cap priorities, all those kinds of things. They don't think they're going to be honored in this new batch of spending bills.

You got Matt Gaetz, one of them, very vocal. He's threatening to call this motion to vacate, to force the speaker out, or at least force a vote on him.

If he doesn't what he believes was agreed to, which is cutting and fiscal austerity and, you know, dialing things back, we've got a meeting this week that was described by Congressman Brian Mast as saying that the speaker said to him, if you want to file a motion to vacate, then file the F-ing motion.

How tense are things within the party right now?

STEFANIK: Well, I've chaired a lot of the conference meetings. I was actually chairing that meeting. It's our weekly discussions with all the Republican members. And it's --

(CROSSTALK)

BREAM: Is it an accurate quote?

STEFANIK: I'm not going to get into it -- I don't quote members in that meeting.

BREAM: Okay.

STEFANIK: Because I want to make sure that I respect them. But Speaker McCarthy's support is strong within the conference. And he has said that he's going to continue doing his job leading this conference.

So, I'm confident we will work through this, and certainly, the majority of members and I believe the speaker will survive any type of motion.

But I don't think it's going to get to that, Shannon, because as I said, we are going through great productive conversations with our members including from the House Freedom Caucus, as well as the Republican Study Committee, and the broad Republican conference to work through this appropriation process, but while also standing up for fiscal responsibility and being good steward of taxpayers' dollars and reining in this out of control spending.

BREAM: So, all of this is going along the backdrop now of a formal impeachment inquiry. Just a few weeks ago, earlier this month, the speaker had said that this would go through a House vote. It wouldn't be the call of one person. It didn't.

Is that because you don't have the House votes?

STEFANIK: Well, if you look at the president here, Speaker Pelosi started the House impeachment inquiry about a month before there was ultimately a vote. So, the speaker can call a vote at any time. That's up to his decision to do so.

The impeachment inquiry is an important step to take for legal purposes, to make sure that the House and Congress as an institution, as its apex of constitutional authority to make sure that we can get access to documents and frankly depositions that we know the administration is going to stone wall.

But it's important, Shannon, to take a step back, take a look at what House Republicans have uncovered. We've uncovered dozens of LLCs by Biden family members, including over $20 million, some of which came in while Joe Biden was vice president. So, this is about Joe Biden and really answering valid concerns regarding corruption and national security.

BREAM: The Democrats will say there is no smoking gun, there's no receipts, there's no transaction that shows President Biden even then as vice president taking in any money that was inappropriate or improper.

Here is what top House Democrat had to say, Hakeem Jeffries. He says this is about a distraction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Extreme MAGA Republicans have launched an illegitimate impeachment inquiry that is a kangaroo court, fishing expedition and conspiracy theater rolled into one. There is not a shred of evidence that President Joe Biden has engaged in wrongdoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: So, why tie yourselves up in this, the resources that are going to be expanded, the criticism that's going to come when you know if it gets to the Senate, it goes nowhere?

STEFANIK: Well, first of all, Shannon, I believe transparency and good governance is very, very important for any Congress. And we know that Joe Biden started off saying he had no knowledge of Hunter Biden's business dealings and then the White House quickly shifted their story to say Joe Biden had no involvement.

We know as we continue to uncover the facts, that's simply not the case. Joe Biden was involved with phone calls with Hunter Biden's top foreign clients.

So, I believe that the Biden family, including then Vice President Joe Biden was deeply involved in this nexus. And, frankly, the question of bribery and high crimes and misdemeanors is important one, and it's up to us as Congress to make sure that we deliver accountability and transparency to the American people.

That's why this White House is fighting tooth and nail to turn over documents, to answer questions because they know we're continuing to uncover what I believe is going to be the greatest political scandal of our lifetime.

BREAM: Well, the country is watching, and we are as well to see where it goes.

I want to touch on something that's happening in your home state as well. A number of -- the issue of immigration. A number of House Democrats went over to one of the facilities where people are being housed, who have come here illegally. They were basically drowned out by protesters there.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, among one of them. She's not happy that the mayor there, Eric Adams, said this is basically potentially going to destroy the city.

She responded to him on X, formerly Twitter, saying this: the core issue is not solely the presence of asylum seekers. And there's a debate about whether all these people are asylum workers. But they want to work and New Yorkers want to hire them. The government is forcing people to remain on public systems because we won't let them work and support themselves. She says that's all they want.

So, would you favor work permits for people who are here and want to work, and are subsisting on government funding that, you know, Eric Adams says is now going to overwhelm the city? How would you deal with the immediate crisis?

STEFANIK: The immediate crisis is to secure the border, Shannon.

Let's take a step back. Mayor Adams and Governor Kathy Hochul support sanctuary city policies. There is a reason that New York is getting overrun and it's because of the border crisis and it's because of the illegal transfers of illegals into New York's state. They try to transfer these illegals to parts of Upstate New York, Upstate -- not only New York Republicans but Democrats as well, at the elected level spoke out strongly against this.

So, the way to solve this is by securing our border which is why House Republicans put a border security bill on the floor. We voted in support of it. Tellingly, not a single Democrat voted to secure our borders, and it's why when we continue these appropriations discussion, one of our key priorities is making sure that we have strong border security policies.

So, this is a catastrophe -- catastrophe of Democrats making in New York state. And they're going to feel the pain at the ballot box because 81 percent of New Yorkers, that includes Democrats as well, are very concerned and think this is a serious issue that New York is facing.

BREAM: It is a serious issue, and they're not the only city. So we'll track this across the country.

Congresswoman, thank you for coming in.

STEFANIK: Thank you, Shannon.

BREAM: Always good to see you.

Okay. Joining us now, Congressman Ro Khanna, a member of the House Oversight Committee and a member of President Biden's reelection advisory board.

Welcome back. Good to see you, sir.

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Thank you, Shannon. Good morning.

BREAM: I want to start with one of our other big stories this weekend, which is the UAW strike against the three big automakers. You are going to go and be in solidarity with the workers there.

Senator J.D. Vance, he's a Republican, he says he's pro-labor. He is pulling for these workers.

But he adds this: Every time the Biden administration subsidizes an EV component made in China, every time his administration drives up the price of gasoline, there is an American autoworker who loses bargaining power.

He says UAW leadership encourages its membership to vote for a man he calls the most anti-car president in history and that nobody should be shocked that these policies are now leading to a place where these workers are striking.

KHANNA: Well, we shouldn't be politicizing this. We should be listening to what the UAW workers want. They want us to tackle climate. They want EVs. They want battery plants.

But they want those jobs to pay well. They want those jobs to be union jobs. And that's what we are fighting for.

I mean, when you have Mary Barra making $30 million, when you have $5 billion in stock buybacks, when you have these big three auto companies making $21 billion, we can pay autoworkers more than $16 and they could have good-paying jobs. And that's what this fight is about.

BREAM: Well, "The New York Times" suggests that these workers are not actually excited for EVs, that they are working and striking to try to protect their manufacturing jobs because it would take fewer jobs to actually put those cars together.

America First Policy Institutes says this: Forcing American automakers to make electric vehicles that the American people do not want and cannot afford is understandably causing hardworking UAW members to worry about their financial future.

A lot of conversation about the fact that the push for green energy that we're not ready for the full transition to something like EVs, that's actually hurting these workers.

KHANNA: Shannon, it is true that an electric vehicle requires less jobs than a traditional auto vehicle, but you have to look at the entire supply chain. And when you factor in the battery plants and other parts of the supply chain, then you have a lot of jobs.

And what most of these workers want is just good paying manufacturing jobs. So, the question isn't, are they making internal combustion engines or EVs? The question is, are those going to be family-supporting wages?

They understand that the world is changing and there are new energy sources, they want to leave there, but they want to make sure those are good paying jobs. And I believe UAW will prevail in its reasonable demands.

BREAM: There's a lot of reporting that people within the UAW, including its leader, are not thrilled with the way that this president has been handling this issue.

"Politico" quotes one of your colleagues, fellow House Democrat Debbie Dingell as unloading on the White House about how they handled this whole situation, asking a top Biden's adviser, quote, "Are you out of your F-ing mind.? That's our second F-ing of the show today," we are editing that.

But how is this man who's described as the most pro-union president in history bungling this?

KHANNA: Well, look, you have someone on his advisory board going to stand with the UAW workers. I penned an op-ed with Shawn Fain just two days ago, saying that the workers are in the right, the big three auto companies are not. Gene Sperling on the president's team is siding with the workers.

I believe the question is, are you going to side with the workers to get higher wages? Are you going to side with the big three auto companies? And the President is clearly on the side of the workers. And when they are resolved, I think he's going to continue to enjoy their support.

BREAM: OK. When it comes to economic issues, our new polling shows that beyond the strike, Americans do not think the president is handling this well. And it all comes down to, listen, the way they vote in a poll or in a ballot box is on their own perception.

Here's the first poll. Concerned about being able to pay your bills, 74 percent of people we surveyed said, yes. How is the Biden administration's actions on inflation affecting you? 53 percent, a majority of people say they're actually hurting them. Another 22 percent say no difference. So 75 percent say hurting or not helping at all. With that in mind, those numbers in mind, is it smart for this President to be out there with Bidenomics as the center of his campaign?

KHANNA: What Bidenomics means is that we are going to prioritize the working class. Let's look at this debate over the shutdown. What President Biden and Democrats in Congress are saying is yes, rent costs too much. That's why we need rental assistance. We need assistance for food because food prices are up.

What the Republicans are saying is no, cut that and have tax cuts. And that is the difference really in this campaign for the president. He has a working-class agenda. He understands people are hurting. He's not oblivious to the price of gas or to the price of food. But what he's saying is let's have government prioritize the working class, not the millionaires and billionaires. And that's really the essence of Biden economics.

BREAM: Well, for most people's real life, it's not trickling through just yet there. Although we're told to stand by, other polling shows that is not resonating with people at home. So we'll continue to track that.

But a couple of other things I want to talk to you about. First of all, impeachment, as we just discussed with Congresswoman Stefanik, you've said, essentially, there's no there, there. But "The Wall Street Journal" Editorial Board points out what she did. Much of that. "The Biden money trail goes through at least 20 shell companies. The Vice President used different email pseudonyms and at least 170 financial transactions related to Hunter or Joe's brother James Biden were flagged to Treasury as suspicious. To say there's no cause for investigation is to deny the reality."

Our new Fox polling also shows that at least 63 percent of voters think President Biden did something either illegal or unethical with respect to Hunter's business. Now, you've got Republicans out there saying, including Scott Perry, one of them over in the House. He says, listen, this is one way to clear the President. Let us have this investigation, if there's nothing there, that's what we'll discover.

But with all of those things in mind, do you think transparency, that the American people are owed an explanation about some of those things?

KHANNA: Sure. Well, the American people want us to fund government and solve their issues. And I know you're always fair and look at the facts, as do your viewers. So I recommend an op-ed that Ken Buck, a Republican, has penned in "The Washington Post," and he goes through all the facts and explains why there is no grounds for an impeachment inquiry.

And this is why Kevin McCarthy doesn't have the votes. I mean, when we impeached President Trump, every Democrat voted it for it. He simply doesn't have the votes on his side. He's got 20 to 30 members saying fund the government, solve people's problems. And Ken Buck lays out all the facts.

BREAM: Yeah, there are definitely Republicans publicly saying they don't want to go down this road, as I asked Congresswoman Stefanik. We'll see if they get to a House vote before they proceed any further once this inquiry is underway.

I want to make sure that we touch on the fact that you're leading a congressional delegation to China. There's been a lot of consternation over the fact that we have sent a number of high-profile Biden administration folks, high-profile business leaders have gone over. Xi Jinping didn't even show up at G20. There's this perception that we're always going to him at this moment in time.

I believe the wording from Tom Cotton, the senator was on this show. He said, it looks like Biden administration officials are chasing their Chinese Communist counterparts like love-struck teenagers and then coming home with no measurable achievements.

What do you hope to accomplish on this trip?

KHANNA: Well, the trip is still coming together. It would be a bipartisan trip. I have called for rebalancing the economic relationship. I've criticized the trade deficit.

I've said, let's bring manufacturing home. I just talked in Fox News in an op-ed about bringing steel manufacturing back. We should be the exporter of steel, not the importer of steel. But we have to, at the same time, have engagement so we can have our economic goals met here and so that we don't have a war in -- over the Taiwan Straits. That is something that the American people want. They want us to focus on improving their lives, not getting into more wars overseas and bringing manufacturing home.

BREAM: Well, folks, can check out that op-ed at FoxNews.com. Congressman, thank you very much for your time.

KHANNA: Thank you, Shannon.

BREAM: Well, a prominent Washington Post columnist is joining the fray, urging President Biden to drop out of the 2024 race. And by the way, take the Vice President with him.

Up next we're going to bring our Sunday panel on what those calls mean for the President's reelection campaign.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm asking about this news that Speaker McCarthy has formally launched an impeachment inquires. He has said he's going to do that.

JOHN FETTERMAN (D), PENNSYLVANIA SENATOR: Oh my God, really? Oh my gosh. You know, oh, it's devastating. Oh, don't do it. Please don't do it. Oh no, oh no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman, just one of the Democrats, laughing off the impeachment inquiry of President Biden, started by House Republicans this week.

Let's talk about it with our Sunday group, Political Congressional Reporter Olivia Beavers, former Bush White House Adviser Karl Rove, Kevin Walling, a 2020 Biden Campaign Surrogate, and the Hill Editor-in-Chief Bob Cusack. Great to have all of you with us.

BOB CUSACK, THE HILL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Hi, Shannon.

BREAM: OK, so what are the risks now for the GOP because the Hill says this, quoting a Senate Republican, it's a waste of time, a fool's errand. Even if this impeachment gets to Biden after an inquiry, there's no way the Senate controlled by Democrats would vote to convict, Bob?

CUSACK: Well, Senate Republicans and House Republicans are not getting along, and they don't agree on many things, including impeachment, and that's right. But can Kevin McCarthy even get the votes to pass it through the House? I mean, it remains to be seen, and that's why they didn't have a vote on the impeachment inquiry. Why? They didn't have the votes.

BREAM: All right. Well, there's another fight that everybody's going to get blamed for too. Another Hill headline says this, lawmakers prepare for shutdown blame game. Karl, this never seems to go well for anyone. But it does generally seem that Republicans get blamed for these shutdowns?

KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Well, generally because Republicans are responsible for the shutdown. They seem to eagerly want it.

BREAM: There you go.

ROVE: So, yeah, there's a reason why they get blamed. And look, the American people demand that their government try and run itself in an appropriate fashion. And the fact that the biggest financial and business enterprise in the world, the U.S. government can out pass a budget in time and then ends up shutting itself down over things that are on the margin. I mean, we're talking about the difference between this and that. And the Republicans are going to shoot themselves in the foot in the run-up to the 2024 election if they continue to think that shutdowns are a great way to put themselves in front of the American people.

BREAM: But Olivia, you report here in D.C. I mean, there is that faction that says you made us promises. This was an exchange for voting you in as speaker, and we stand by real conviction that we need to scale back this funding level. These are things that you told us you would do. And now threats about, you know, the motion to vacate.

OLIVIA BEAVERS, POLITICO CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Certainly, and, you know, this is a precarious position for the speaker to be in. I do think -- and I've been talking to sources, there's a group on the Hill with the Freedom Caucus and the Main Street, who are more rank and file, lean centrist, who have been talking, and they are getting close to a framework.

So there might be a way forward for Speaker McCarthy if they can get the Republicans on board. The question is, what is the top line? And I still don't have that information. There are some conservatives who say if it's near where the debt ceiling limit had been passed, they're going to oppose it, because they've been calling for cuts, and if they don't get those cuts, they're going to look like a hypocrite. So we're in a tough spot, but, you know, at least they're sounding optimistic that something will move forward.

BREAM: OK, so we have an escape hearing, which occasionally happens live on TV. That'll go on our end of your blooper reel. That will be very fun. We love it.

OK, so the internal fighting for the Republicans, but Democrats also have this internal conversation going on about whether they want somebody else to be running for president. Here is something from David Ignatius in the Washington Post, and got a lot of attention this week. He says, if he and Harris campaign together in 2024, I think Biden risks undoing his greatest achievement, which was stopping Trump. So he says two liabilities, both age and keeping Kamala Harris as vice president on the ticket.

KEVIN WALLING, FORMER 2020 BIDEN CAMPAIGN SURROGATE: Yes, and I mean, the most amazing thing about that David Ignatius column is that 90% of it is in praise of what Joe Biden has accomplished, mainly because of his experience, his wisdom, his age, his relationships in Washington, D.C.

And I think, you know, you see a president that sees himself as one of the few people likely on the stage that can defeat an existential threat to the Republic, which in his mind is Donald Trump. And he did it just three years ago with the Kamala Harris team and I think he's itching for that fight again.

It would have been interesting if Donald Trump had not run again, whether the President would view a second term as something that he'd be interested in. But certainly, he views himself as the one person that can defeat Donald Trump again.

BREAM: And Ignatius is trying to talk him out of that.

WALLING: He is.

BREAM: Because he thinks that's going to be the backfire on him. OK, so to the issue of Vice President Harris staying on the ticket. Here's what a couple of top Democrats had to say when they were asked point-blank about that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Is Vice President Kamala Harris the best running mate for this president?

REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: He thinks so, and that's what matters. She's the Vice President of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's President Biden's choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Bob, not a resounding endorsement of the current Vice President?

CUSACK: No, her poll numbers are not good and the President's poll numbers are not good. And this is a problem. I mean, Democrats, I think, are a little overconfident that they beat Trump four years ago and they're going to beat him again.

And listen, I think with Harris, though, we know this parlor game of speculation that maybe she'll be bounced. There's no chance they're going to bounce Harris from the ticket.

BREAM: Yeah, I agree with you. But as you mentioned, tough poll numbers. I want to put this up new from our Fox News polling. These are places where President Biden is losing from key constituencies and President Trump is picking up suburban women, women overall, black voters, voters under age 45, Hispanic voters, I mean, Karl, those are warning signs?

ROVE: Oh, terrible. And we've had lots of warning signs. Think about it, we have national polls showing that three out of every four Americans think that he is too old to be president already. And he's going to get older. Surprise. He's going to get older between now and the election. And two out of three -- two out of three Americans thinks he is mentally not up for the job. The idea that he won by 43,000 votes in three states with over 100 and -- significantly 160 million people voting and that he's in a better shape today than he was three years ago is, they're kidding themselves.

This is a disaster that is self-inflicted and two people who had the ability to tell Joe Biden it's time to hang it up his wife and his sister who plays a major role in every one of his campaigns. What are they thinking, particularly after, you know, things like the Hanoi News conference? This is a disaster for the Democrats.

BREAM: Well, and there's some others, Maureen Dowd is among those who think that he's being overmanaged when it comes to things like the Hanoi press conference or others. She says this, "his staff reinforces the impression of a fragile chief executive by over managing him and white-knuckling all his appearance by publicly treating him as though he's not in control of his faculties by cutting him off mid-thought as though he's faltering and needs caretaking, they play into the hands of Trumpsters."

Kevin, what if he is just unleashed?

WALLING: Listen, I've always described the idea, let Biden be Biden, right? You know, he has the skill set necessary over 50 years in public life to deal with the press, to engage with the press. So I'm of the mindset, let it let him out, you know, let the bear loose. What we talked about during the Obama years. Because listen, I think he's up for the fight. You know, he's -- he just came back on a whirlwind tour of Asia, right?

We talked about that Hanoi press conference, our own Peter Doocy said, you know, he pulled an all-nighter, right, in advance of that press conference. And again, as he always says, and I'm going to get, you know, probably made fun of him for saying this again, but, you know, compare me to the Almighty, not the alternative. Or vice versa, compare me to the alternative, not the Almighty.

And again, these polls --

ROVE: They don't need to run the Almighty, they just need to run somebody who can string together two sentences and demonstrate competence.

WALLING: But these polls a year out to Karl's point, you know, don't make a lot of difference. And you compare them to the same conversations we were having about Barack Obama, who was down with all those different groups of people in 2012. You know, he can win this and bring it back together.

ROVE: Yeah, look, Obama was down, but not as much as this guy, and nobody. Three out of four Americans did not say he's too old for the job, and two out of every three Americans did not say he's not mentally up for it. This is -- we are in a fundamentally different place with Joe Biden, and it is going to get worse for the Democrats, not better.

BREAM: Well, Olivia, how much of a headache is this for the White House? All of these polling numbers? And I know that they'll say he doesn't -- you know, that's not what he's dialed into. But now he also has to deal with the indictment of his son. It was a tough week?

BEAVERS: Yeah, and I mean, like the polling about his mental soundness, where Donald Trump's mental soundness is going up, steadily over the months, and his is going down, that's a tough look. David Ignatius' column was a gut punch, and now he's dealing with his son. And Maureen Dowd saying he needs to start answering for some of these questions, because you can't keep running from them.

But he's in a reelection, things are going to get intense, and he's going to have to figure out how to maneuver sort of these views that are increasing about him, and trying to disprove that he is up for the job.

BREAM: Yeah, we've got more poll numbers we will dig into, panel, when we come back. We're going to leave it there for right now, don't go far.

All right, presidential hopeful Vivek Ramaswamy says he plans to fire 75% of all federal employees if he wins. Just one of his controversial positions we will ask him about when he joins us live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Republican Presidential Candidate Vivek Ramaswamy is set to take the stage at the second GOP presidential primary debate in just 10 days. Brand new Fox News polls show him holding steady at 11% still in third place, but now just two points behind Ron DeSantis, who's dropped three points since the first debate.

Ramaswamy made headlines this week by vowing to fire 75% of federal government workers by the end of his first four-year term if elected. He's also promised to eliminate several federal agencies, including the Department of Education and the FBI.

Republican Presidential Candidate Vivek Ramaswamy is set to take the stage at the second GOP presidential primary debate in just 10 days. Brand new Fox News polls show him holding steady at 11 percent still in third place, but now just two points behind Ron DeSantis, who's dropped three points since the first debate.

Ramaswamy made headlines this week by vowing to fire 75 percent of federal government workers by the end of his first four-year term if elected. He's also promised to eliminate several federal agencies, including the Department of Education and the FBI.

Joining me now to discuss all of that and more is Vivek Ramaswamy. Welcome back to Fox News Sunday.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good morning, Shannon.

BREAM: OK, so let's start here. President Trump has widened his commanding lead. I mean, that's 60 percent now. Many analysts say everybody else is just sort of playing for second place. You've said you would not accept the vice-presidential spot, so what's the point of your campaign now?

RAMASWAMY: So, look, the core focus for me, Shannon, is to take the America First agenda even further than Donald Trump did, but to reunite this country in the process. And I can't do that from a number two position or a cabinet role. I can do that as the next president of the United States, especially reaching young people in this country, who are lacking in national pride.

And Shannon, I think the way that we're going to be able to revive this country is by answering even what it means to be an American today. We're in the middle of a national identity crisis. I have a vision for reviving the 1776 ideals that set this nation into motion. I think we can still do it. We're not working with a lot of time.

If my two young sons graduate from high school, if we're 10, 20 years into this and we haven't fixed it, I quite frankly don't think we'll have the same country left. But I think this is our window to get it right. That's what gives me my urgency. And I expect we will be successful. We came from 0.0 percent to where we are now. I think we're on track to win this election.

BREAM: So your profile is growing, but as it does, our polling also shows your unfavorables are up. This is the latest polling up 12 points since we pulled this in August. One recent opinion piece puts it this way. "Of all the descriptors attached to the Vivek Ramaswamy, the 38-year-old political tyro enjoying a bizarre surge in the Republican primary race for second place, the most common one seems to be 'annoying." Why do you think as more people have gotten to know you your unfavorables are up too?

RAMASWAMY: Well, look, we have been taking intense criticism, Shannon, over the last several weeks since I performed well on that second debate. And this is part of the process, so I invite the open debate.

The reality is many people are annoyed by my rise and believe that a 38- year-old is too young to be U.S. president. The fact of the matter is Thomas Jefferson was 33 years old when he wrote the U.S. Declaration of Independence. He also invented the swivel chair while he was at it, by the way.

And so, I think we need to revive that spirit. And I believe, Shannon, it will take someone whose best days ahead are still yet ahead in life to see a country whose best days are still yet ahead of itself. And I do believe that the United States of America can see our best days still yet ahead. But we can't just be running from something.

I don't criticize actually the radical Biden agenda that much because I think it's the wrong place to focus. Of course, there's a lot to criticize. But we have to offer a vision of our own, not just what are we running from? What are we running to, revive meritocracy, the pursuit of excellence, economic growth, free speech, open debate. These are basic values that most Americans still agree with, Shannon.

And that's why I'm confident that we have a chance to deliver a 1980-style, Ronald Reagan-style, moral mandate. That is how we'll unite this country. And I'm in this race because I think I am the single best positioned candidate to do it. And even though we've taken criticisms from basically nearly every other candidate that's been threatened by my rise, I'm not running against any of them. I am running for this country. That's the mission we're guided by.

BREAM: OK, I want to do a lightning round so we can get to some topics with you.

RAMASWAMY: Sure.

BREAM: I want to talk about your decision or announcement that you would fire 75 percent of the federal workforce didn't go over well here in Washington as you might imagine, but maybe that's your whole point. You and I are both lawyers. You talked through the statutory and regulatory framework you believe would allow you to do this.

RAMASWAMY: Yes.

BREAM: I'm having a hard time finding any scholars in that field who agree with you, but plenty would disagree, including Peter M. Shane, scholar in residence at New York University and a specialist in separation of powers law. He says, this campaign white paper you have on it is fantastical. Peter L. Strauss, professor emeritus of law at Columbia, said, it took bits of statutory law out of context while totally ignoring the Constitution.

So you got to know it's going to be tied up in legal framework and fights if you did get there. But what about the practical implications of this? I mean, people who can't get student loans processed or a background check for a gun? I mean, there's a reality to getting rid of a million federal workers.

RAMASWAMY: Yes, so a couple of things, Shannon, on the legality of it, there are professors from Yale Law School to Columbia Law School that have carefully advised on this. And with due respect, I am probably the only presidential candidate whose books have been quoted by federal appellate court judges in their opinions in recent years. It turns out that presidents have been duped by that standard advisor class who said you can't fire these employees due to civil service protections.

The fact of the matter is those civil service protections only apply to individual employee firings, not mass layoffs. So I do think it takes a president with the first personal understanding of the law and the Constitution.

BREAM: OK, what about the practical implications?

RAMASWAMY: And the good news, Shannon, is the current Supreme Court. Yes, the Supreme Court agrees with me six to three on that, I believe. Practically speaking, this is a deeply practical policy. Take the FBI shutdown that I've proposed. That one turned the most heads. 35,000 employees at the FBI, but I've been clear that we will keep 15,000 of the agents on the front lines. We will just move them to the U.S. Marshals or to the Drug Enforcement Agency or to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network at U.S. Treasury, where they will have greater specialization and be even more effective at enforcing the law today than they already are.

So this is deeply practical, both for effectiveness as well as for reduction of cost and competitiveness. Department of Education, same thing. That 80 billion dollars put it in the hands of families. This will stimulate our economy.

BREAM: OK, let's talk about H-1B visas. On the issue there, you've said you would gut that program, which allows us to hire foreign workers for specialized tech and other jobs here in the U.S. Politico says this, that's the very system that you used in the past to hire high school foreign workers for the pharma company that built much of your wealth. You've called it a form of indentured servitude that can only accrue to the benefit of the company. So why did the company you start use that 29 times in the last five years?

RAMASWAMY: Shannon, I believe the energy system in this country and energy regulation needs drastic reform too. But I still use water and electricity and turn on the lights. So the fact of the matter is I have an understanding of the regulatory apparatus because I have dealt with it as a CEO and an entrepreneur who's built multiple companies. What I think is we need to replace the H-1B lottery system.

That's what people need to appreciate. It's a lottery. Why on earth would you use a lottery when you could just use meritocratic admission instead, restore merit. There's also lobbying based provisions where companies who sponsor somebody, that H-1B immigrant cannot work for a different company unless they actually have a whole bureaucratic process to go through.

We have to gut that system, restore meritocratic immigration, which is skills, not just tech skills, but all kinds of skills to match the needs we have in this country, but also civic commitments to this country. Take the citizenship test on the back end. I say move it to the front end even to get a visa.

So yes, Shannon, I come from a place of understanding. And I've played within the rules that have been given to us by the government, but part of my job as U.S. president is to reform those rules to help all Americans. And I won't apologize for restoring merit.

BREAM: OK.

RAMASWAMY: And debureaucratizing that legal immigration process.

BREAM: OK, I do truly want to try to do some lightning round on foreign policy.

RAMASWAMY: Sure.

BREAM: Because it's where you seem to be having to make the most clarifications. Let's talk about Taiwan. Business Insider has this headline. GOP presidential hopeful says he would let China invade Taiwan so --

RAMASWAMY: Wrong.

BREAM: -- long as the U.S. has got enough semiconductors. You've talked about us being independent on that front and at some point, that would dial back our commitment to defend Taiwan. Is that the message you want to send to China?

RAMASWAMY: I want to be crystal clear, Shannon, because we've got to be -- everyone Americans should know this. Both political parties in the U.S. position right now is a one China policy towards China of strategic ambiguity.

I am the only candidate in either party who has been clear. We will defend Taiwan at least until we get semiconductor independence, at which point we resume the current posture of strategic ambiguity towards that island. That is honest. And here's how I'm going to lead our foreign policy, clear red lines.

(CROSSTALK)

BREAM: OK. But -- so once you have that independence -- so once you have that independence, though, that we do on semiconductors, are you then signaling to China that we would not defend Taiwan?

RAMASWAMY: No, I'm not. I am signaling that we go back to our current posture, the status quo accepted by both parties of strategic ambiguity. That's where we are now. I say resume that. But in the meantime, we need to upgrade our commitments.

BREAM: OK.

RAMASWAMY: To say we will defend Taiwan. I've been crystal clear I am the only candidate in either party who has said it.

BREAM: OK. A couple of clarifications on Israel.

RAMASWAMY: Sure.

BREAM: You have said that we would defend them. But Vice President - former Vice President Pence, who was with us a couple of weeks ago here, said that he was really worried that you wouldn't use military - are you - military defenses to defend Israel against Iran. He called it deeply troubling. He says, you've got to send the message to the Mullahs there that we will do what it takes to defend Israel.

Now, is your issue no boots on the ground or are you also saying no military equipment, drones, air strikes, those kinds of things?

RAMASWAMY: No, Shannon, you can look at my written statements on this. I've been crystal clear. And I'm disappointed in the other candidates for mischaracterizing it. I said we will defend Israel militarily in the case of conflict with Iran, but we would not want to put boots on the ground.

And any other candidate who disagrees with that position, I challenge them to be clear about how many American men and women, our sons and daughters, would they send to die in another war of the Middle East. I have heard crickets in response to that question.

BREAM: OK.

RAMASWAMY: But the reality is, we will defend militarily. That's different than boots on the ground. And even Israel, the staunchest Israel advocates in Israel, do not have expectations of American men and women putting boots on the ground to invade another country.

BREAM: And I know you've said on the issue of aid, we would only withdraw U.S. aid from Israel once they tell us they no longer need it.

RAMASWAMY: Yes.

BREAM: I can't imagine any country telling us they don't need U.S. aid, but - but I understand that's your line.

RAMASWAMY: Actually, Shannon, that is my line. But the funny fact, the one leader who has ever said it was Bibi, the leader of Israel, in the mid- 1990s when he told us that they didn't need civilian aid anymore, which is why our relationship with Israel is so strong. We can be candid with each other.

BREAM: OK.

RAMASWAMY: Bibi is candid. So am I. That's why we'll have a great relationship.

BREAM: All right, one last point, you talked about, and I'm quoting you, a broader comprehensive vision for disengagement from the Middle East. Do you worry about a vacuum that would create, the message that it sends there to very back actors in the neighborhood where Israel lives, who talk about, you know, wiping that country off the map. What is this idea of disengaging -- or the U.S. disengaging from the Middle East?

RAMASWAMY: Well, this is my whole foreign policy vision is the number one threat we face is communist China. So, realistically speaking, and I'm a realist when it comes to foreign policy, we have to direct our attention there, not to the USSR, which doesn't exist anymore, and I think compared to the Middle East, communist China is a top priority for the U.S. to defend again. That's why our alliance with Israel is particularly important because we have to have a stable partner that ensures stability in the Middle East.

BREAM: OK.

RAMASWAMY: That's why I want to lead Israel into Abraham Accords 2.0. And so I am a realist when it comes to foreign policy, assert American interests, but keep your eye on the real threat that is communist China today. And I think we should reckon with that and admit it or else we're going to make serious mistakes over the next four years.

BREAM: All right, we're only scratching the surface. So, please come back. Vivek, great to have you.

RAMASWAMY: Thank you.

BREAM: A reminder, by the way, Fox Business will be at the Reagan Presidential Library later this month, the second Republican presidential primary debate. Watch it all on Fox and Fox News Business on September 27th.

All right, up next, special council Jack Smith is asking a judge to impose a gag order that would restrict what President Trump can say in some respects about the federal case against him in public, pointing to his heated statement on social media and the campaign trail. Our panel debates that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, a lot of times they say, well, they don't like Trump but they love his policy. No, I think they like me too.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL) AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The time for excuses is over. I don't see what we need a mulligan after 2024. We need to get the job done. I can tell you this, I will get the job done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Former President Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis talking about polls and what's at stake in the 2024 election, both at events here in Washington, D.C.

We are back now with our panel.

All right, I want to start with some more polling because we asked people, does the word "corrupt" describe President Biden or Trump. The country seems pretty evenly divided on the issue of Biden. But Trump actually, he has a 14 point plus in favor of sounding corrupt. Bob, how does that play for him on the campaign trail? Is it already baked in for a lot of folks?

CUSACK: I think it's totally baked in. And, you know, two out of three people want another choice. I think there will be a choice. That doesn't mean that choice is going to win. But a lot of people that I talk to are just begging. They - they - they don't want a repeat of this but both Biden and Trump have solidified their position in the party. And that's why they're going to, I think, both be the nominees.

BREAM: Well, yes, we do hear the polls of people who say they don't want this and then overwhelmingly these are the two people leading their fields.

CUSACK: Yes.

BREAM: So we also asked the question of who has the mental soundness to serve. Joe Biden. Carlos referenced this. Only 36 percent of people think that he's got what it takes, 61 percent say no. And, Olivia, you mentioned this too, when you look at the trend, President Trump has been trending upward. People feeling he's more mentally sound to serve.

BEAVERS: Yes. And so, I mean, that's sort of an interesting contrast when you look at the two presidents. And the corruption numbers, they're worse for Donald Trump. The mental soundness numbers, they're better for Donald Trump. And this is a debate we're going to be seeing. Some of the - just breaking down the Republican numbers for Trump's legal woes is interesting too because they seem divided. Some think it's going to help. Some think it will hurt. And some think it won't make a difference at all.

One of my colleagues wrote a story recently, and he said that I think about 38 percent of the Trump supporters say that they won't change their minds. So that's pretty strongly baked in supporters no matter what happens with these legal cases.

BREAM: Yes, and with these legal cases, by the way, there has been a request filed by the special council with the judge who's overseeing one of the federal cases here asking for a bit of a gag order about what President Trump can say. And, you know, this is what he talks about on the campaign trail all the time. He knows it's working for him. Fox News reports this, "if approved by Judge Tanya Chutkan," who I believe the president's also trying to get removed from the case, "the "well-defined restriction' would prohibit Trump from making statements regarding the identity, testimony, or credibility of perspective witnesses.

Karl, his team had said this is election interference. It interferes with his First Amendment rights. But this judge is pretty no nonsense and we'll see what she does with it.

ROVE: Yes, absolutely. And, look, this is going to be one of the continuing saga of this campaign as he attempts to run while he is facing four legal actions. And already he has - the camp is saying that he is not saying things or appearing at things because -- giving interviews because they don't want to put him in potential jeopardy of saying something that causes a problem for him in a - in a - in one of these legal cases.

I'm with Bob, partly. People don't want this -- Biden versus Trump. If I were a betting man, and I'm not a betting man, I'd have to bet on Biden and Trump being the nominees, but I'd take the field against him. The party that figures out that a new phase ought to be its nominee is the party that is going to have the upper hand in the 2024 election. Right now we're aiming towards a race between two people whom every - who people distrust or dislike, and that's never a good recipe.

BREAM: Well, and, Kevin, No Labels is still sniffing around about a third party run, thinking that if these two are gridlock and if polls say that people aren't thrilled about either choice they want to offer another option. I know that's a -- Democrats feel like that's going to work against them if that happens.

WALLING: Oh, it absolutely will. And you just have to look at the history of third party bids in this country. But, you know, to Bob's point, and it's an interesting one, listen, you know, Democrats are solidly united behind Joe Biden. You know, he's at 76 percent, I think, in terms of the primary voting universe according to Morning Consult. Donald Trump's numbers are still up as well.

So, I think we're looking at these national polls through kind of partisan bifocals here. So, those numbers in terms of why Donald Trump is down nationwide are because Democrats and independents are a part of those polls, and vice versa with Joe Biden. So, while they've got, you know, serious support from their party base, it is true, to Bob's point, that, you know, we don't want to see a rematch of 2020.

BREAM: Well, with that in mind, who thinks we'd possibly get a third party ticket? I mean, No Labels is doing the work in the states to get on the ballots.

ROVE: They'll be on the ballot. They've got an excellent plan to do so. But I'm with Kevin, their parties typically don't have any impact in winning election but they have an impact on deciding who loses the election. Think about it, we had a big personality and Ross Perot got 19 percent of the vote.

BREAM: That's a big (INAUDIBLE).

ROVE: Nothing - nothing in the Electoral College.

WALLING: Zero Electoral College.

ROVE: Zero. Right, the last two candidates to get votes in the Electoral College were in 1968, George Wallace, and Strom Thurman, 1948. Both of them explicit racists running for - to oppose desegregation in the South.

WALLING: And they were spoilers in that - in both races.

BREAM: Who thinks it helps the - the Republicans?

WALLING: Absolutely. One hundred percent.

CUSACK: Yes. Yes, it helps Republicans, yes.

WALLING: It's a shadow operation on behalf of Republicans, No Labels.

BREAM: Oh. All right, well, they say they're not, but we've talked to them about that and they're always welcome to come back on the show.

Panel, thank you very much. We'll see you next Sunday.

Up next, a preview of my chat with the man called one of the most encouraging humans on the planet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: A quick note this morning. A brand-new episode of my podcast "Livin' The Bream" drops today. This week I sat down with Pastor Max Lucado. We talk about his new book "God Never Gives Up on You." Very thankful for that. Plus, you can hear all of today's program on the Fox News Sunday podcast. Download and subscribe at foxnewspodcast.com, or wherever you like to get your podcasts.

That is it for us today. Thank you for joining us. I'm Shannon Bream. Have a wonderful week. We'll see you next Fox News Sunday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END

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